Following others has gotten a bad rap.

[cizz]

Following others has gotten a bad rap.

Following others is not specifically
forbidden, in fact it is encouraged
as Long as the one being followed
is following Christ.

Paul specifically told the Church at Corinth to follow him.
1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

He made a similar statement to the Thessalonians.
2 Thessalonians 3:7 KJV
For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us:
for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among
you;

2 Thessalonians 3:9 KJV
Not because we have not power, but to make
ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

And again to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 13:7 KJV
Remember them which have the rule over you,
who have spoken unto you the word of God:
whose faith follow, considering the end of
their conversation.

Peter tells us that the Apostles are an example
that we are to follow.
1 Peter 2:21 KJV
For even hereunto were ye called: because
Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an
example, that ye should follow his steps:

2 Peter 2:2 KJV
And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
by reason of whom the way of truth shall be
evil spoken of.

So why do so many Pastors, preachers and Christians
discourage others from following the man or woman
that they see?

In a word; cowardice.

It takes a great deal of courage to stand up and walk
the example that others can follow and imitate. It
requires self sacrifice, indeed, it requires becoming
a sacrifice. And when you do that you can be sure that
others will do all they can to sacrifice you on the
alter of their egotism.

When those who are called to leadership positions stand
up and say to the body: "your not suppose to be trusting man."
what they are doing is rebelling against the example
that Peter, Paul and the other Apostles gave for those
who are called to the position of preacher.

The problem we see today is that so many in the position
of leadership miss a very important criteria that Paul
gave.

1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

We do not follow blindly, we follow as we see those
who lead follow Christ.

But what did Jesus say concerning this following
men and even trusting men.

John 13:34 KJV
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love
one another; as I have loved you, that ye also
love one another.

The commandment to love one another necessitates
the ability to also trust one another. You cannot
genuinely love another that you cannot trust. Nor
can you genuinely love another you cannot count on.

If you are not going to have my back, why then should
I have your back.

This ability to trust one another, count on one another,
and therefore love one another is commanded by Christ
when He said the following:

Luke 6:38 KJV
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good
measure, pressed down, and shaken together,
and running over, shall men give into your
bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete
withal it shall be measured to you again.

Note that He said men will give into your bosom.
He did not say that God would give into your bosom.

Why then do so many preachers as well as Christians
steer people away from counting on people when
Christ Himself said that we ought to be able to count
on one another?

In two words: Selfish Cowardice.

The last thing any Pastor of a church wants is for his
parishioners to come to the church asking for assistance
doing God's will and starting ministries. That however
is the example we see in Acts regarding the practice
of the Church under the Apostles.

Acts 2: KJV
44 And all that believed were together, and had all
things common;
>> 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted
them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the
temple, and breaking bread from house to house,
did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of
heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people.
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should
be saved.

This was common practice as it was repeated in Chapter 4.

Acts 4: KJV
32 And the multitude of them that believed were
of one heart and of one soul: neither said any
of them that ought of the things which he possessed
was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness
of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great
grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for
as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold
them, and brought the prices of the things that were
sold,
>> 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and
distribution was made unto every man according
as he had need.

The affluent provided for those who had need.
Not only could these people could count on one,
they had each others back. They were of one
heart and had all things common.

The result of this obedience to Christ's command to
love one another even as He loved us was the performing
of mighty signs and wonders by the Apostles. Continued
growth in the numbers of believers and a testimony amongst
the unbelievers of that day.

Today, the true men of God that preach obedience to the
commandments of Christ are rejected as though they are
heretic, and the false prophets that teach people to
disobey the commandments are exalted as though they are
true.

Scott A. Tovey

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/earthquake_flooding_prophecy/message/9111

[dgbygrace]

Matthew 10

  22And you will be hated by all for My name's sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [[a]from spiritual disease and death in the world to come].

    23When they persecute you in one town [that is, pursue you in a manner that would injure you and cause you to suffer because of your belief], flee to another town; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a servant or slave above his master.

    25It is sufficient for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant or slave like his master. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub [master of the dwelling], how much more will they speak evil of those of His household. [II Kings 1:2.]

John 16:20
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that you shall weep and grieve, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.

John 15:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

 17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

 18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

[cizz]

"Followers"

Strong's G3402 - mimētēs

an imitator

[dgbygrace]

Interesting...imitator.  I see much in some to imitate.  But truly the one we are to imitate is Christ.  No human example is going to be perfect...although some come closer then others.

[dgbygrace]

Hey Scott.  Anything else you care to add to this?

[cizz]

Sometimes I think when we encounter those that don't have our backs and let us down it is only allowed so that we can grow in our faith and trust toward God. Lessons for both myself and the one that I think let me down...

Makes me stop and question myself to consider if I am trustworthy and someone others can count on  in that the other person has really blessed me to have me considering myself and what I do..then knowing that they did actually do good to me I can still and hope good for them too..

The Lord has all our backs and trusting that really does take the worry out of it..

[ScottT]

I have heard this argument quite often over the past few years and have
decided that it is contrary to what Jesus has told us. I am of the opinion
that those making this argument are doing one of two things:
1. Using it to justify their not having another's back when they are quite
capable of doing so.
2. Providing a cop out for those who despite their ability to do so, choose
to not obey the commandments of Christ.

Have you heard this one?
"God is not interested in our doing His commandments, He is most
interested in having a relationship with Him."

There are several scriptural arguments against this heresy.

1. In the beginning, Adam fell out of relationship with God because he did
not do God's commandment.
2. Without the successful obedience of Christ in doing God's commandment,
we would not have salvation.
3. Revelation specifically tells us to do His commandments that we may have
the right to the tree of life and to enter through the gates into the city.

So there we have it. From the Alpha to the Omega, God tells us that we cannot
have a relationship with Him if we do not do His commandments.

Jesus tells us the following in Matthew 25.

Matthew 25 (KJV)
     41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
          Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
          prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
         I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked,
         and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye
         visited me not.
   44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when
        saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger,
        or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister
        unto thee?
   45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto
        you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of
        these, ye did it not to me.
   46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
        but the righteous into life eternal.

Note that these who are found to be acursed are those who did not do
His commandments.

So, why is it so important to God that we do His commandments?

When we do God's commandments, our actions enable God to provide for
the needs of the poor and needy. When we refuse to do God's commandments,
we by our actions, show God to be unable to provide for the poor and
needy.

We consistently hear the "trust God" motto, but the fact remains that God
uses people to provide for the needs of others.

God used ravens to feed Elijah the prophet by the brook. Where did the ravens
get the bread? From the people who baked the bread and gave it to the ravens.
God may have used the ravens, however, He was also using people.

After the brook dried up, God did not miraculously add water to the brook.
He instead sent Elijah to the widow who then gave Elijah the last cake she
had. It was not until the widow provided Elijah his need, that God worked
a miracle to provide for the needs of the widow, her son and Elijah.

Way to often people are expecting the prophet to come and work a miracle
without having to first provide for the needs of the prophet.  They want God
to work the miracle first before they give their last cake to the prophet.

In the end, they end up numbered amongst the goats who are the accursed
because they failed to do God's commandments.

Jesus said: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto
God the things that are God's." The argument that we are not to count
on people is in violation of this commandment. The argument that we
can never expect people to do their part in God's plan in our life is contrary
to this commandment.

When people show that they can be trusted to be faithful, we do not
have a right to take from them the testimony of their faithfulness and
give it unto God. God may have enabled that person to be faithful, but
that person also had to actively be faithful. By being faithful, the faithful
person shows others that God is faithful as well.

A person that shows them-self unfaithful does not necessarily mean that
you were wrong to have a measure of trust or reliance on that person.
It is illogical for God to say: "It is not good that man should be alone."
And then declare to the man that he cannot trust the woman to be a
faithful help mate. It is contrary to the truth that it is not good that man
should be alone.

If a person's need for food, water, clothing and shelter goes unmet, to
that person God is not able to provide. God's provision can come in many
ways. A job which most people prefer. Assistance from the church or
assistance from Government welfare programs. Either way, God has
provided. It is not wrong for a person to count or rely on any one of
these methods for God's provision as God has elected to use these
methods for helping the poor and needy.

I think that far to often, a person is judged as trusting in man when all they are
truly doing is what they are able to do, trying to survive a very harsh and
difficult situation.

Scott A. Tovey

Sometimes I think when we encounter those that don't have our backs and let us down it is only allowed so that we can grow in our faith and trust toward God. Lessons for both myself and the one that I think let me down...

Makes me stop and question myself to consider if I am trustworthy and someone others can count on  in that the other person has really blessed me to have me considering myself and what I do..then knowing that they did actually do good to me I can still and hope good for them too..

The Lord has all our backs and trusting that really does take the worry out of it..

[dgbygrace]

Ah you make points Scott!  But you kinda of switched topic there (and I will reread later...got to go to work right now).

You started with following others and now we are talking about commands.  I absolutely agree we are to follow His commands.

We are also told to be imitators.  But just like a child who should and does imitate their parents...they are still expected to grow into a person of their own who imitates Christ.

[cizz]

Hey brother! Thank you for sharing more with us on this topic. I'm having to read and re-read for you have given so much to think on in this topic!

Have you heard this one?
"God is not interested in our doing His commandments, He is most
interested in having a relationship with Him."

I'm stumped at this one, how can any not be doing His commandments when they are in relationship with Him? Is that not what the relationship is with Him, so He can lead, teach and have you doing His works? I'm like most people it takes someone else to help me see myself...most of the time I'm blind to what I'm saying and doing and knowing this about myself I also know that all humans are like this...who better to show us ourselves but Him? In my relationship with Him it is me that is the one that is always pointing out what others are doing and not doing to Him as if He didn't already know!  But I have found that He wants me to see what I'm doing and not doing instead because I'm truly blind in that...

When we do God's commandments, our actions enable God to provide for
the needs of the poor and needy. When we refuse to do God's commandments,
we by our actions, show God to be unable to provide for the poor and
needy.

This would be like limiting God and placing Him under man's control and authority..do we need God or does God need us? If I fail or refuse to provide for another in need, then it is me that fails...not God, He never fails, I can not honestly say to any that He will not refuse...I would be a lier in that because I have known Him to refuse me many times in certain things and I have learned to respect Him when His answer is NO..It is only when I put that respect toward Him into action of remaining in my faith and trust of Him to know what He is doing that He will usually then go forth to explain and show why He had refused me...


 We consistently hear the "trust God" motto, but the fact remains that God
uses people to provide for the needs of others.


I think this is very true! I see Him working with me in everyone I meet and know. For me, He without doubt uses everybody, rather they know it or not...most of the time the other person doesn't even know until I share it with them that God used them to help me! They have no credit until He does..and the same goes for me, I have no way of knowing when God uses me to help another until they reveal that secret to me. That is a joyous thing when it happens! Everybody gets edified in that!  That's like a pat on the back you didn't even know was coming to you!


After the brook dried up, God did not miraculously add water to the brook.
He instead sent Elijah to the widow who then gave Elijah the last cake she
had. It was not until the widow provided Elijah his need, that God worked
a miracle to provide for the needs of the widow, her son and Elijah.


Brother if you don't mind I will break this post right here and start another so it won't be so lengthy, you actually brought me a great blessing with your example of Elijah and the widow! The Lord truly brought me to remembrance of something that happened in my life along those very lines, something I had never considered before..

[cizz]

If a person's need for food, water, clothing and shelter goes unmet, to
that person God is not able to provide. God's provision can come in many
ways. A job which most people prefer. Assistance from the church or
assistance from Government welfare programs. Either way, God has
provided. It is not wrong for a person to count or rely on any one of
these methods for God's provision as God has elected to use these
methods for helping the poor and needy.

I whole heartily agree with this brother!

What the Lord brought to me to remember was a time not too long ago that I found myself in bad need! My husband and I both had no work at this time and while trying to find work our family was down to below the necessary needs to survive on a daily bases. We had gotten to the point that I had less than 24 hrs. before the power company was going to cut us off! They refused to make pay arrangements with me because neither of us were employed, so in a sick and frenzied panic I go to the outreach ministry here, I drove our car that was on fumes in the tank praying, hoping and semi-trusting that this place was going to at least help me to keep my kids warm in the dead of winter by helping to pay that power bill or even just enough of it to persuade the power company not to cut us off. I kept thinking surly if someone would just help us get a little more time we could find work somewhere!

I actually sat there in a small office with this woman at the ministry wiping tears and choking back sobs of desperation and fear while she watched me fill out all their paper work. She watched my hands shaking as I tried to answer all the questions and hand her back that paper, after she took the paper and started looking over it, I remember sitting there and using the sleeves on my coat to wipe snot and tears off my face as I looked behind her at a box of tissues she had placed far out of reach for anyone but her self..I was thinking how pathetic, I can't even get a tissue to blow my nose..

The woman finally looked up from the paper and said we can't help you, there is no one working or receiving income in the house , our funds are for those that have a way to help themselves, if we pay this bill for you we have no guarantee that you will be able to keep the power on next month, sorry.

It is truly a breaking point when even the churches cast you off into helplessness..I can't tell you how badly this affected me, I had spent yrs. supporting this ministry in all they were doing, donating food, clothes and items for their used goods store. I had donated my time, money and gas into helping them raise funds, not just me but my children had also participated in collecting food door to door for their food bank...

I walked out of their office that day stunned with reality of knowing what that woman said was true. I could not even blame them for not helping me! I knew if I had been that ministry, I would have reasoned it the same way they did, I would have found that helping someone like me in a situation like mine to be pointless and useless too...not of any real help at all. I would have judged it as taking from those that could make good use of it and giving it to someone that did not have a way to make it into something useful..it would have been throwing money away. Knowing this about myself did not help the hurt and disappointment I felt that day.

What did help was the calm that overcame me when the Lord showed me myself in that ministry and had me reconsidering my own self and the way I think and treat others in their times of need...and I while I quietly walked out of that ministry office that day considering it, I walked straight into the help He was sending me! I didn't even have to go looking, he was just there an old friend smiling and jarring me out of my stupor with happiness to have ran into me! This friend automatically assumed that I was there on my usual assignment to drop off food or donations just like him, he was there volunteering his time to sort the dropped off items for the store. After I shared with him that I didn't have anything to drop off, that I was actually there asking for help, he just smiled and handed me ten dollars for gas and said, "you ran in the wrong direction!" He sent me 20 miles in the other direction to social services, said go ask them, so I went and they paid the whole power bill which gave us three more months of power to get by on until the work came...
The Lord blessed me at both these places!

Way to often people are expecting the prophet to come and work a miracle
without having to first provide for the needs of the prophet.  They want God
to work the miracle first before they give their last cake to the prophet.
 

Everyone is a prophet in the end times..

Since I experienced what it is like to be cast off into helplessness even by the churches for the same reasoning that I used to have...I have reconsidered my reasoning and my doings, for I have very little doubt that when the Lord is saying NO in one place it is for good reasons and there seems to always be a lesson in it for me..

Just like Elijah walking away from that brook when the answer there was no, he didn't hanging around hoping or begging he just walked away..for Elijah to accept that God placed him into a helpless position needing to rely on God to send help, Elijah actually got to call on another before time in asking a widow to do something not heard of before our Lord came and set the example for us...

The widow had already gave up all hope of her and her son being saved, she knew they were going to die after that last small meal...Elijah asked her if she would give up even that last crumb for another (him), will you give up your life for another? Had nothing to do with Elijah beng a prophet or man of authority, had everything to do with can you truly love another in giving up everything you have to help another...

I don't feel so bad about that ministry not giving me what should have been mine that day..my last crumb in knowing that it was the last, I can truly say please give to someone that has a way to make it keep going for them..

The Lord has floored me into awe of Him again in knowing that all I was able to recieve at that ministry was $100 to help pay a power bill and when my heart said give it to another that can make good use of it, for it is a last crumb to me...He opened the door for another to pay a $540 bill and give me more hope and time, exactly what I had asked Him for and hoped I would get from Him...

The widow's faith was not in Elijah it was an act of faith in God

[dgbygrace]

Wow sis.  All I can say is wow.  Although I don't agree with I would view your situation the same way the ministry did you.  I think that is wrong.  But amen...yes....God allows "no's" so that we can go on to something better that is His plan...often a plan that is surprising to us.

And the lessons are not just for those in need...but for those called to give can learn to give too.

[ScottT]

I think you're missing my point.
Following others has gotten a bad rap because of false prophets.

We are commanded to "be ye Holy for I am Holy says the Lord".
In order to be imitators of Christ, we must obey the commandments
and strive to keep them.

By keeping the commandments, people can count on us to do the
right thing, if we do not keep them, then people cannot count on
us to do the right thing.

The two are in fact intertwined. Part of the same rope just a
different strand. " a threefold cord is not quickly broken."
Ecclesiastes 4:12 KJV

Some focus on faith alone.
    "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of
     yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man
      should boast." Eph 2:8,9  KJV
Some focus on works alone.
    "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that
    they may have right to the tree of life, and may
    enter in through the gates into the city. "    Rev 22:14 KJV
Some focus on relationship alone.
   "But the hour cometh , and now is , when the true
    worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in
    truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." John 4:23 KJV

None of these in and of themselves is correct in regards
to God's plan of salvation. All three are twisted around
each other like that of three cords twisted to form a rope.
One is not without the other.

When you understand to combine all three, then you understand
that a good relationship with God cannot exist without the keeping
of His commandments. The keeping of His commandments is not
possible without the faith that gives you the motivation to do His
will. In doing His will, you enter into a proper relationship with Him.
This relationship is a threefold cord that is not quickly broken.

Scott A. Tovey

Ah you make points Scott!  But you kinda of switched topic there (and I will reread later...got to go to work right now).

You started with following others and now we are talking about commands.  I absolutely agree we are to follow His commands.

We are also told to be imitators.  But just like a child who should and does imitate their parents...they are still expected to grow into a person of their own who imitates Christ.

[ScottT]

Cizz,

That opens stirs emotions.
I have experienced a very similar thing as you did.
Unfortunately for me at the time, no one was willing to help me and I ended up homeless. That lead to malnutrition which lead to a heart condition that nearly killed me. Now, even though I have a condition that prevents me from working,
I am told that I can work. I'm not told what work I am expected to be able to do, but the... have some delusion that I can do what ever it is that they expect me to be able to do.
 
The only thing I can figure they have in mind is robbing banks. I however cannot run and a person that cannot run has no business pursuing the field of bank robbery. But they are sure confident in my ability to do it.
 
I do not understand the not helping people unless they have a job mentality that has possessed so many ministries and government services. If the person had a job, chances are they would not be asking for help to begin with.

What is truly troubling about that hateful attitude, is that those same ministries and organizations that require a person to be working before they will help them, will not lift a finger to help a person if the help will directly lead to the person getting a job.  It's pure hypocrisy.

Scott A. Tovey

[dgbygrace]

I think you're missing my point.

When you understand to combine all three, then you understand
that a good relationship with God cannot exist without the keeping
of His commandments. The keeping of His commandments is not
possible without the faith that gives you the motivation to do His
will. In doing His will, you enter into a proper relationship with Him.
This relationship is a threefold cord that is not quickly broken.

Scott A. Tovey

I don't believe I am misunderstanding...you worded it very well as usual but this IS what I believe!

[cizz]

Cizz,

That opens stirs emotions.
I have experienced a very similar thing as you did.
Unfortunately for me at the time, no one was willing to help me and I ended up homeless. That lead to malnutrition which lead to a heart condition that nearly killed me. Now, even though I have a condition that prevents me from working,
I am told that I can work. I'm not told what work I am expected to be able to do, but the... have some delusion that I can do what ever it is that they expect me to be able to do.
 
The only thing I can figure they have in mind is robbing banks. I however cannot run and a person that cannot run has no business pursuing the field of bank robbery. But they are sure confident in my ability to do it.
 
I do not understand the not helping people unless they have a job mentality that has possessed so many ministries and government services. If the person had a job, chances are they would not be asking for help to begin with.

What is truly troubling about that hateful attitude, is that those same ministries and organizations that require a person to be working before they will help them, will not lift a finger to help a person if the help will directly lead to the person getting a job.  It's pure hypocrisy.

Scott A. Tovey

Brother I didn't realize you had been through so much, that is heart breaking to hear. I don't think too many people realize that malnutrition came damage your heart badly, your body will actually break down the heart muscle and use it to feed the body causing holes and tears in the walls. Causes major damage!

I'm with you! Very confusion as to which and what kind of work somebody with a heart condition can do! Even a job that would only require you to be sitting would actually put stress on your heart! And once you put on a app. that you have been diagnosed with a heart condition that in itself will hold you back from gaining employment! 

  well...you drive to get away car and I'll stick em up with the water gun!